The Mary Sue Debate

[The Lion Turtle]

One day, whilst reading/watching/ect. your favorite manga/book/T.V. show/movie/ect., as strange thought popped into your head -- a character you invented goes into said world and meets the characters, experiences events, and more with the main cast (or minor characters).

Viola! An original character is born (hereafter refered to as OC). Everything's going great until you have the fab-u-lous idea of writing a story of said world with your character in it. You devise a plot and develop your character a bit more, write it out, and submit it to the famous Fanfiction.net.

You monitor the reviews very carefully until one day, some snot calls your precious character a "Mary Sue."

What the hell is a Mary Sue (hereafter stated as MS)?

You eagerly scour the web, find in horror what a Mary Sue is an how they are perceived by most of the web community.

You are devistated. People hate the character you get so much pleasure out of! Why?!

Good question. Wikipedia states that "many of [the afore mentioned] traits in and of themselves can make a Mary Sue. For example, basing a character on oneself was once considered acceptable. Even romantic involvement was allowed if it was realistically portrayed. Rather, a Sue depends on the author's reliance on such gimmicks to make a character unique and appealing." The definitions of Mary Sues differ from genre to genre -- obviously, many times characters from anime, manga or video games or the fantasy or sci-fi genres have powers that are not human, and set them appart. But this does not limit Mary Sue-ness in said genres. If they have powers that many of the cannon characters cannot have, and are much more powerful than them, then they are often times MS, though there are exceptions -- I refer you to Mary Sue at Wikipedia and the links on the same page for more back ground information on what makes a MS.

Now, the debate is thus: are MS bad? Are they bad for both fanfictions are role-playing? When are MS apropriate? What traits make up Avatar MS? And any other questions others would like to raise.

My own answers are thus: Mary Sues are not always bad. I have even seen good Mary Sues, but that is not quite what I mean.

Mary Sues are fantasies; no more, no less. This isn't always bad, because surpressing fantasies are worse and it can relieve many things for people. However, I do not think that Mary Sues are always apropriate. For example, whenever I get into a series, show, or movie, I love to make my own character. Ask me about it; name a show I love, and I will garentee that I have a character for it. And I will flat-out tell you that they are 99.9% Mary Sues. BUT! And the most important thing is! I don't share them. I don't submit fanfics. I don't go onto a chatsite or forum with my Mary Sue. I have before, but I don't now.

Of course, I hate reading Mary Sue fanfiction, and I will not read your fanfic if it has a Mary Sue (which is about 99% of OCs). I will not RP with you if you have a Mary Sue (almost always -- they're are a few exceptions) and I will never force my MS on you. I do not think it is apropriate. The only people I do share my MS characters with is with really good friends who 1.) don't mind and 2.) it is an RP just between the two of us (or perhaps one other person).

What makes me angry is the lack of character development. Your character doesn't always have to have a tragic past and be all not messed up or some great power yet not corrupted (remember "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"). This is why I love Kronus, whom I acctually tested in a litmus test and passed with flying colors. He is my greatest acheievment, delisiously evil and sadistic yet the heroine falls in love with him, trying to change him but he cannot. Might sound a bit MS to you, but you have yet to fully meet him.

Why we ask for so much at FS is because we want you to grow as role-player. Show you a different side other than your MS. Show you what a real character is like. AS my best friend's dad says, "We are attracted to people by their perfections, yet we fall in love with them for their faults."

Now, by all means do NOT riddle your charcter with too many faults (because that is also MS), but, instead, find a balance of good and bads, and try to reach out to traits that haven't been done much or at all. Be ugly, a feminine boy, a masculine girl, fall for an old guy, look old, be the soilder, be the doctor, be the opposite gender (yes, guys, try being a girl for once -- I bet you can't do it!), be something that has not been over done.

---

So...................... debate!

[reed]

well this is akward......how can i debate with you if I agree with you ?






uuhhh.....I WILL FIND A WAY!!! ;D

[themogget]

Well, here's a test...Thing for Mary/Gary Sues: www.angelfire.com/gundam/otto/grayswandir/mary-sue-test.html

...Last time I took it for one of my original characters, I got a negative score. Apparently, that means I'm as anti-sue as possible; I didn't even give my character many bad traits...


Anyway, I think that Mary Sues aren't anything to worry much about, and...

...

Screw this. Too late to type a rant. Anyway, I don't mind Mary Sues as long as they're not...Too...Sueish.

[reed]

themogget said:

Well, here's a test...Thing for Mary/Gary Sues: www.angelfire.com/gundam/otto/grayswandir/mary-sue-test.html

...Last time I took it for one of my original characters, I got a negative score. Apparently, that means I'm as anti-sue as possible; I didn't even give my character many bad traits...


Anyway, I think that Mary Sues aren't anything to worry much about, and...

...

Screw this. Too late to type a rant. Anyway, I don't mind Mary Sues as long as they're not...Too...Sueish.

...dido

[reed]

I took the test...! ...and I'm not suppose to be taking the test......akward.....*shifty eyes* *backs away slowly*......

[sakurako]

OOhh, nice topic, Xia. I shall state my opinions.

I think that Mary Sues are not always bad. I mean, if the writer is not a total n00b, then you could actually write an awesome fanfic based on a Mary Sue-like character. But I think there are limits to where they are appropriate to use and where they are innapropriate.

For example, it would be totally innapropriate to use a Mary Sue character on a roleplay. Hey, if one person started doing it, then we'd all start doing it, and there would be chaos and arguements. But sometimes creativity can be confused with a MS character.

I really think that there is a thin, sometimes invisible line that can be crossed between having a MS and having a unique character. For instance, the tragic past is definately having a quality of a MS, as is the fact that your character has met the cannon characters.

But sometimes, in fanfictions, Mary Sues are not bad. The plot can sometimes overlook the character. I say that if you have an awesome writing style, a good plot, and an interesting, captivating title, well, then who's to say that your writing is bad, or has a Mary Sue?

I think that Mary Sues are fun and fine to do, just make sure you have a good plot, and are not roleplaying. Mary Sues are a lot more interesting than any character you'd find on FS (No offense, this is probably a good thing.) and admit it; we love to read about them. Because, if you think about it, a lot of the characters in ATLA could be considered MS. But who would watch a show about a normal Earth Kingdom person with no exicting, epic quest? It doesn't really work so well that way.

Everyone, don't be all high-and-mighty because your character isn't a MS according to some stupid quiz. You know what, who cares what everyone else says about your writing?! They could be wrong anyway. It's yours and you should be proud of your fanfiction. (If you're a good writer.) Who cares if people think its a "Mary Sue"? People view what a Mary Sue is very differently. There are certain limits, but work around them, and create a kick-ass character.

Xia, some people may view YOUR character as a total MS. (I don't, but others might.) Same goes for you, Keiji! Why waste time worrying about what others say? Just go with your ideas. Because, if anyone tries to limit your creativity, well, then, obviously they do not have a creative mind of their own. (In the fanfiction world, of course.) Books about normal people don't get published. Interesting books about unique people do. No one will read your book if it's boring.

My final word is that you need to identify your own line between MS and a good character and go for it. Power to the man! Don't be afraid to write what you want to.

[The Lion Turtle]

sakurako said:

OOhh, nice topic, Xia. I shall state my opinions.

I think that Mary Sues are not always bad. I mean, if the writer is not a total n00b, then you could actually write an awesome fanfic based on a Mary Sue-like character. But I think there are limits to where they are appropriate to use and where they are innapropriate.

For example, it would be totally innapropriate to use a Mary Sue character on a roleplay. Hey, if one person started doing it, then we'd all start doing it, and there would be chaos and arguements. But sometimes creativity can be confused with a MS character.

I really think that there is a thin, sometimes invisible line that can be crossed between having a MS and having a unique character. For instance, the tragic past is definately having a quality of a MS, as is the fact that your character has met the cannon characters.

But sometimes, in fanfictions, Mary Sues are not bad. The plot can sometimes overlook the character. I say that if you have an awesome writing style, a good plot, and an interesting, captivating title, well, then who's to say that your writing is bad, or has a Mary Sue?

I think that Mary Sues are fun and fine to do, just make sure you have a good plot, and are not roleplaying. Mary Sues are a lot more interesting than any character you'd find on FS (No offense, this is probably a good thing.) and admit it; we love to read about them. Because, if you think about it, a lot of the characters in ATLA could be considered MS. But who would watch a show about a normal Earth Kingdom person with no exicting, epic quest? It doesn't really work so well that way.

Everyone, don't be all high-and-mighty because your character isn't a MS according to some stupid quiz. You know what, who cares what everyone else says about your writing?! They could be wrong anyway. It's yours and you should be proud of your fanfiction. (If you're a good writer.) Who cares if people think its a "Mary Sue"? People view what a Mary Sue is very differently. There are certain limits, but work around them, and create a kick-ass character.

Xia, some people may view YOUR character as a total MS. (I don't, but others might.) Same goes for you, Keiji! Why waste time worrying about what others say? Just go with your ideas. Because, if anyone tries to limit your creativity, well, then, obviously they do not have a creative mind of their own. (In the fanfiction world, of course.) Books about normal people don't get published. Interesting books about unique people do. No one will read your book if it's boring.

My final word is that you need to identify your own line between MS and a good character and go for it. Power to the man! Don't be afraid to write what you want to.

None of the cannon characters in Avatar would be considered Mary Sues because the show is fantasy. I agree, with out plot it would be boring, and not many people can write about a boring day in the life of an average citizen (it only worked, so I hear, in Ulyssus).

And I totally agree that somethings in this show would make a Mary Sue in others, while other nice characters would make a Mary Sue in this show.

So, what exatly consitutes a Mary Sue? Wiki says anything that is overdone, or a gimmic too often used by authors to try to make their character unique.

This includes alot of things, so there are shades of grey attached to this. But what deffinately makes a Mary Sue?

For one, being a second Avatar while another Avatar is alive.

Depending on the curcumstances, falling in love with a cannon character and said cannon character falling back in love with the character (although this is not always true, it is 99% of the time).

Bending more than one element at a time, or bending an element that has not been heard of in cannon. Or being an Airbender when they're supposed to be dead (although if the story is convincing, it may very well not be). Really, any power that a cannon character does not have, or doing it better than a cannon character (unless, of course, you're a 62 year old waterbending master -- then, I'm sure, you'd be able to beat the crap outta Katara and Aang).

Now, this is deffinately where people will argue with me, but I stand firm: having special features unique to the race the character was born in. This includes, but is not limited too, eye colors other than blue, brown, green, amber/golden, and, for Airbenders, grey. Hair colors include any unnatural color (blue, pink, green, silver at a young age, ect.), blond, red, and dyed hair (dyed hair is iffy since the ancient Egytians had hair dye, but I'm sure it only came in a few colors and did not reach the Orient).

My reasons for this is thus: genetics. Do you see people with blond hair in the Orient? Red hair? Green hair? Nope! Unless they had forgien blood, a 100% Japanese girl will have brown eyes, brown hair, and tannish skin. This is genetics. If you don't know how they work, I'm not going to extplain it too you; it's a long lesson to teach and I'm afraid I would not be very good at it.

So, what may not consitute a Mary Sue?

Dark origins, being orphaned, a female soldier. Possibly. These are shades of grey (with many more). It really all depends on how you handle them. However, I will almost gaurentee that a girl who was abused, sexually or otherwise, as a child WILL have mental affects. Trust me, okay? Same goes for other tragities. Having a tragic past with absolutely no reprocussions in Mary Sue. And that's what gets me the most.

Mary Sues are great for starters, but remember, not everyone will like them, so don't expect them too. The reason why I don't allow Mary Sues on here is because the majority of people don't like them. I'm tired of seeing girls that can bend more than one element or an unheard of one with a very tragic past and showing no illness (or, in some cases, being very mentally sick) and still getting it on with Zuko, Sokka, or Aang. I don't want it here, do you? Sure, on a mental level, Mary Sues aren't bad, and I will admit to making them, but I won't force my character on others. And I expect others to do the same on MY site.

[jialingjin]

Oh man...

Years ago, In Jr. High (8th grade.. 9th grade) I wrote a fanfic (with help of a friend) that focused around our favorite Angsty video game character: Leon Magnus of Tales of Destiny.
and OMG! The Mary Sue I had for that!

First off.. She was a hot headed, stubborn girl with a heart of gold that she not show much.
She had black hair and green eyes (considering Leon had black hair and purple eyes) and she had scars. ^^ One across her eye, numerous scars on her arms and legs and torso.

Now coms the real sue-ish part. This is all in game rigt now -
Leon's father, Hugo, was the tyranical head of a coporation that create Lens for this 1800s-ish world. Lens produced energy. Hugo became possesed by the dead king of an ancient civilization that lived in plates above the surface of tne world and berated those who lived on the surface. There was a war and the Surface dwellers, E'rthreans, destoryed the Aeretheans, the plate dwellers using swords that had been infused with a human soul trapped in a Lens. The greatest minds of the E'rthreans became the Swordians.

Fast forward! The Swordians have reawaken and have come into the possesion of five unknown Swordian Masters - people who can hear them and use their magic. Leon was one of these. Obviously.. The good Guys Being the Swordian Masters defeat Hugo and the evil king Kronos who was trying to resurrect his dead kingdom. Leon was a traitor to the good guys and joined Hugo's side to save the woman he had always thought of as a Mother and Companion to him, Marian.
Leon is defeated by your party and presumable drowns. (we now know that in Tales of Destiny 2 Japanese.. he is offically dead).

Now the fanfic took place after the game and Leon had somehow managed to survive and find his way back home. He now lived back at his family's manor with Marian to care for him and due to his wanting to live a quiet life, no one knew what had happened.

Now Enter's Ezra. Ezra's past is so mary-sue-ish.. but I loved it. Ezra was what I dubbed a Chimera. She was the last member of a experiment by Hugo's company, the Oberon Company, to produce human soliders with the powers of Swordians by infusing their blood and every tissue with the dust of ground-up lens. Ezra was given the name and number Amalthea 7 as she was the 7th in the Amalthea experiment but she was not a full sucess. She was weaker than they had hoped and had feelings. etc. etc.
Well. Ezra escaped as a child and went into hiding. She eventully adopted the name Ezra and became a street preformer that traveled. Well she eventully returned to Darlishield, where Leon lived.

And Thus.. Commences the fanfic of a tragic romance as Leon and Ezra try to defeat the evil Amalthea 13.. the first fully-sucessful Chimera who is trying to merge with her 'sister' in order to form an even more powerful force.

So.. *clears throat* I am TOTALLY guilty of Mary-Sueing and so when I review Profiles.. I look for qualities that I have displayed.

[sakurako]

And I totally respect that. ^^ I understand that roleplays are greatly different from fanfictions, and I was mostly applying my words to fanfictions. And this is your site, and I'm not trying to sound attacking... I would probably have the same type of rules if I made an Avatar roleplay.

I, too, think that double-benders are unbelievable, since there hasn't been one known in the actual series. Ugh, once I was on a site where the admin played a SECOND avatar while Aang was still alive; it was terrible.

It was really funny, actually, because I recently left them and told them what a MS site they had, and they got all defensive and insulting and couldn't spell "perfectionist" when insulting me. -Ehem- Well, back to the topic. I think that people should be able to have some differences in appearances as long as they aren't totally out there, like lime green hair or something.

I'm sure that not all water benders look exactly the same in color and hair tones. Who knows, brownish hair could exist very easily. The same goes for eye colors. Obviously a water-bender wouldn't have golden eyes like Zuko, but I can compromise with any shades somewhat close to blue (light blue, grey, dark grey, maybe a silver-y color) Tannish skin? I guess that with genetics and all, all water benders must have some sort of dark tones, but it it very well possible that they could have paler skin. If you never leave the house, or rarely do so, you're not going to be that brown.

I think that there are definately limits to what your character can look like, but you need to take into account that not all people look exactly the same, in real life as well. Put two Italian people next to each other, I bet you they won't both have the exact same chacteristics. So my philosophy is that you can have a unique character, within the laws of genetics.

[The Lion Turtle]

sakurako said:

And I totally respect that. ^^ I understand that roleplays are greatly different from fanfictions, and I was mostly applying my words to fanfictions. And this is your site, and I'm not trying to sound attacking... I would probably have the same type of rules if I made an Avatar roleplay.

I, too, think that double-benders are unbelievable, since there hasn't been one known in the actual series. Ugh, once I was on a site where the admin played a SECOND avatar while Aang was still alive; it was terrible.

It was really funny, actually, because I recently left them and told them what a MS site they had, and they got all defensive and insulting and couldn't spell "perfectionist" when insulting me. -Ehem- Well, back to the topic. I think that people should be able to have some differences in appearances as long as they aren't totally out there, like lime green hair or something.

I'm sure that not all water benders look exactly the same in color and hair tones. Who knows, brownish hair could exist very easily. The same goes for eye colors. Obviously a water-bender wouldn't have golden eyes like Zuko, but I can compromise with any shades somewhat close to blue (light blue, grey, dark grey, maybe a silver-y color) Tannish skin? I guess that with genetics and all, all water benders must have some sort of dark tones, but it it very well possible that they could have paler skin. If you never leave the house, or rarely do so, you're not going to be that brown.

I think that there are definately limits to what your character can look like, but you need to take into account that not all people look exactly the same, in real life as well. Put two Italian people next to each other, I bet you they won't both have the exact same chacteristics. So my philosophy is that you can have a unique character, within the laws of genetics.

The different shades is what we encourage, accutally. I'm sure that a Waterbender could have greenish-blue eyes, but she'd probably need a bit of Earth Nation in her... If you notice, Zuko's eyes and Zhao's eyes are different shades of amber. Very nice. So, yes, I agree in that since. Not everyone's going to have Katara's crystal blue eyes -- I myself have dark blue eyes. That could be one thing to have as a character....

[sakurako]

Hehe. My eyes are like a denim-blue color. They're actually close to what Katara's are. Yes, I noticed that Zuko's and Zhao's eyes are different colors. So basically we're on the same page, with only a few disagreements on other things. ^^

[katuko]

I took the test and I got a six. But the thing is, alot of the said questions, I haven't even considered. Also, considering Enitsua is ten, many of the questions didn't apply to her. Maybe she's a bit under-developed...

[gandalan]

katuko said:

I took the test and I got a six. But the thing is, alot of the said questions, I haven't even considered. Also, considering Enitsua is ten, many of the questions didn't apply to her. Maybe she's a bit under-developed...

Well, I was honest about it and got a 19. CRAP.

Ah well... at least he's normal. Most of my points were for drawing him, having glasses and abnormal hair (at least here) and etc. stuff.

[The Lion Turtle]

I put Xia through the ringer at DH and she got a non-Sue rating. Hm.

[gandalan]

::)Lucky. I mean, if I take off those points, and... OH WAIT! If you are normally supposed to have magic, that doesn't count! Hee hee! 15. And then take off the glasses and hair (if it was normal time), and you've got a solid 10.

I guess I'm just jealous. ;D